The Great Wittenberg Gate Debate!

Now that Wittenberg Gate has been around long enough to have some regular readers, I'm going to start something I've wanted to do since, "before the foundations of this blog were laid." Introducing: (drum roll, please), The  Great Wittenberg Gate Debate!

When Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the gate at Wittenberg Church, he wasn't trying to start a Reformation; he was trying to start a debate. He was offering to argue any one of his theses with any debater who would accept his invitation. Nobody took him up on it, but we're hoping for better results here.

This is my invitation for you to nail your thesis to the gate. If you have a topic you would like to offer for debate, leave your thesis as a comment to this post. If any interested debater accepts your invitation in a following comment, I will moderate the debate.

Update: Students (age 19 or under) who wish to debate other students may specify an age range when posting a thesis. So, home schoolers, get out those logic and rhetoric books and put them to good use!

Please read the following guidelines before submitting a thesis:

1. A hopeful debater will post a thesis for debate. The thesis should be a precise statement that the debater is prepared to defend. A good thesis statement is not too broad. For example, "God created the world." is too broad. "Microevolution cannot explain the present scope of speciation," is better. "Arminianism is superior to Calvinism," is too broad. The Scriptures teach that any person can be saved," is better.

2. The topic can be anything related broadly to Christianity, including theology, Christianity vs. other religions, politics with a Christian worldview, philosophy, apologetics, education, ethics, etc.

3. If someone chooses to accept a debate, he or she will leave a comment stating which debate is being accepted. Both parties will be notified by the moderator, and be asked to submit opening statements via email within a seven day deadline.

4. When both opening statements have been received, they will be posted, with the debater defending the thesis appearing first.

5. Within seven days of the posting of the opening statements, both sides will submit a rebuttal statement, which, when both are received, will be posted with the debater opposing the thesis appearing first.

6. Within seven days of the posting of the rebuttal statements, each side will submit concluding statements, which, when both are received, will be posted with the debater defending the thesis appearing first.

7. Concluding statements may summarize points previously made or answer objections raised in rebuttal statements, but they may not present arguments which, in the opinion of the moderator, are wholly new, since your opponent will have no opportunity to answer them.

8. Concise writing is a virtue. I will edit, (with deletions clearly marked), any opening or rebuttal statements over one thousand words, and any concluding statements over seven hundred words. Please don't feel obligated to use all of your allotted words;-) The word count feature of Microsoft Word will be used to determine word count. (Available in the "Tools" pull-down menu.)

9. Comments to these postings will be closed until the debate is complete. Once a debate is concluded, readers are encouraged to weigh in.

10. Once the debate is complete, readers may vote (once) for the winner of the debate via email. Please vote for the person who best defended his or her position, and not necessarily for the person with whom you most agree. After seven days, the votes will be tallied and the winner announced. Please be on your honor not to artificially inflate votes for one side or another.

11. Debaters must avoid personal attacks and offensive language. The moderator will be the judge of what is appropriate, and in some cases, she may give a debater the opportunity to edit his or her submission. Respectful debate glorifies Christ.

12. The seven day deadlines will be adhered to rather strictly unless the sympathy of the moderator is sufficiently aroused by a very, very sad story. Sycophantic links to this website from yours may boost your case in this regard. Otherwise, debaters not meeting deadlines will be considered to have forfeited the debate, and the opposing debater's submission will be posted unopposed.

13. Students (age 19 or under) who wish to debate other students may specify an age range when offering a thesis for debate.

So let iron sharpen iron; let the games begin, and may God be glorified!

Comments

[Diane R]

Horray! Let's do it:::)_

[Adrian]

OK hows this one for size
"Someone who calls the classical evangelical doctrine of penal substitution "Cosmic Child Abuse should no longer be called an evangelical" any takers?

[Rey]

I think Adrian is calling out Wink...

And, this is a great way to offer up debate, I must say. It's not the normal comment/forum system which more often than not degrades to blind posting, lack of respect and an openly bad testimony.

I think the only tough thing is that people will definitely vote for the position they agree with the most. It's sad, but if an Arminian has a good arguement I have a feeling Reformed folks will vote "reformed" anyway.

Be that as it may, it'll be a great social experiment, nevertheless.

[Stuart DiNenno]

This sounds like a good idea. I have much experience debating in discussion forums but I have never tried a structured debate like what you have proposed above. I might give it a try, if I can find a suitable thesis for debate (and one that I am reasonably sure I can defend).

But I would rather see someone else go first, just so I can get an idea of how it works.

[David]

I tend to agree with Rey; many people will vote their own position. Still, this is an excellent idea. However, I can't even win the debate with my teenagers over who is older and wiser. I think I'll just read for a while.

[Bonnie]

What a great idea, thanks for offering a wonderful opportunity. I'd like to participate but, like the above commenter, prefer to observe others first :-)

[brad]

Dory,
I will post a very serious topic. I already know tat it will be about "Christians and politics". I will post the debate topic by tomorrow. Somehow I will compare "being in the indulgence" business with being in the "politics" business.
God Bless,
brad

[Jeremy Pierce]

Wink never said any such thing, and I think he'd be insulted at the suggestion. He's made it quite clear that he thinks the atonement achieves the satisfaction of God's wrath, which is exactly the view the people Adrian is talking about are opposing. As Wink has shown, it's the penal element and not the substitution element that those people hate. It's the substitution element that Wink has questioned.

[brad]

Here is my topic:
I am a pastor and I contend that pastoring is not about being a theological thinker (though that may help) but about being:
1. A discipler who allows people to observe his life as the example.
2. A developer of discipleship processes.
3. An evangelist.
4. A manager.
preaching is only a small part of the job description. This being said most pastors do not do their job and spend most of our time on non-discipling activities which do not add value. Furthermore, most pastors do not know how to disciple, do not have a discipleship program and are not altogether worried about it.
What is wrong with this picture?? I believe this problem is deeply theological, philosophical and practical and will require a reformation to change.
Note: I am a pastor.
brad

[Diane R]

I would need to see Brad's entire argument to see if I could debate. As of now, I disagree with much of his rpemise, although I agree with some of it. However, whenever I read Brad's blog, at times I disagree but when I read it again, I see things I missed..LOL. That is why I would need to see it in it's entirety..

I think what I am saying is this--it seems we are all stuck on what the format is to be.

[brad]

Dory,
I thought you would pick a debate topic and then that person would write and then the others like sharks would tear the poor fool to bits. Is that how it is gonna work because, I will be shark bait first if you like.
brad

[Diane R]

Brad,

From what I understood Dory to say, someone would pick the topic (not Dory necessarily) and then write extensively about it. Then someone else would present the opposing view. After that people would vote on whose view was most compelling.

Dory: Could you clarify how this thing works?...:)

[brad]

Dory,
In otherwords, should I just write an article supporting my radical change point or should I wait for you to say: OK the first person is Brad and he has agreed to go fisrt. Brad is going to write on the need for radical change in the church. After, he posts everyone else can post a counter-point arguement and the judges will decide who wins.
brad

[Dory]

This is how I picture it (unless someone has a better idea.) One person proposes a thesis they would like to argue for. A second person who wishes to argue against the same thesis accepts the challenge. Once the thesis is agreed upon, both parties submit their opening statements to me and then I post them simultaneously. Then we do likewise for the rebuttal and concluding rounds. Then we all vote and comment.

So, if you are thinking of offering a thesis, remember that it must be clear and narrow in focus, and one that someone else is likely to be able to have a clear position against.

Some examples might be:

* The Scriptures teach that drinking alcoholic beverages is forbidden.

* God created the world in six approximately 24 hour days.

* Christ died for the sins of every person.

* No woman is Scripturally qualified to hold the office of elder.

* The second commandment forbids creating any likeness of any of the three persons of the Trinity.

Does that help to clarify things?

[Diane R]

It seems as though we are stuck. If someone wants to argue for the emergent church (meaning pulling away from the institutional church) I will be happy to take the opposing view.

Diane R.

[cwv warrior]

Since I don't know very much about the "emerging church", my thesis would be a bit different. Like Luther, I would like to engage in battle on an issue. Split or debate is up to the church. The truth will either unite us or divide us. So, to the premise. The church needs to teach and preach the cultural mandate, as in Total Truth by Nancy Pearcey. If they don't, the church will die as an irrelevant institution. The great commission and the cultural mandate are not separate entities. She can't grow unless she takes the culture more seriously, for that is the true battlefront.

[cwv warrior]

Dory,
Maybe you need a separate blog for this one? It seems to be lost in the shuffle. Anyway, I think it's a great idea. I don't feel qualified to debate Brad on what his job should be. My proposal is a smaller detail of what pastors need to teach/ preach and maybe more debatable. The cultural mandate and the great commission are one concept. To subdue the earth is evangelism. Pastors somehow don't apply cultural issues to discipleship. We are all politians(we vote and debate), economists, educators, artists(we create), businessmen (making a living), etc. Shouldn't our best mentors come from the pulpit?
Brad? Anyone? Seems the debate hasn't gotten past the initiator. No takers? I would take on Adrian, but I need more detail. Who said it was Child Abuse anyway? Context please. I don't get it.

[Diane R]

I don't think most think the church should be in a cocoon. But the emergent chruch IMO has made a terrible left turn, just as the seeker sensitives.

[cwv warrior]

Okay? How is it that the "seeker sensitives", the emergent church is turning left? The mainline churches did that long time ago. I don't follow the emergent church news. Who are they? I'm a newbie. The worldview idea is that absolute truth via God's Word and the Holy Spirit can and should unite Christians on the cultural issues, as well as theology. I have learned much from Francis Schaeffer and Charles Colson. I repeat this challenge (Feb. 10)... trying to get a debate going!

[Diane R]

I would like to get a debate going too, but I fear that you and I, cwv, might be to close on many points for really good debate....:)

[cwv warrior]

Yep. It is hard to fake the other side so it probably would be a one sided debate Diane! Where is everyone? I had a debate with my own pastor on the issue. His argument is that Sunday is for worship and the experience of God's grace. My argument is that he is right but cultural issues shouldn't be left out. Afterall, God is working through culture and wants us to be His instruments in subduing, conquering, changing civilization for His Kingdom. I just bought Being the Body by Chuck Colson. Building up ammunition here!

[Michelle]

Dori, I think your debate format is an EXCELLENT concept!

However, I agree that it seems to be "lost in the shuffle" here on your blog. I would like to propose writing a program specifically designed for these debates. I will gladly write and host this program if you agree to remain the moderator. (My blog does not have the traffic to support such a thing, neither do I have the expertise to moderate.)

Interested?

[James Fletcher Baxter]

Question:
Following the 'rending of the veil,' where in the New Testament is there validation of a priesthood? jfb

[asiatrek]

This may be a really cool idea!
I came here via a link from Nicene Theology which came from a link via google.

I already have two topics but for a more formal debate I would still need some time to produce something quite technical (if needed since I only have the Net for resources due to my financial constraints)

topic #1
The Chalcedonian Council was a historical disaster/blunder for Christendom (I could have utilized other terms for it -- )
and was to a large degree a result of eccelesicastical/political ambitions.

topic #2
I discovered that I am having a fascinating time trying to put it into a concise statement that is debate-able

topic #2

[WeekendFisher]

Topic #1: When reading a Bible passage that is in the genre "plain exposition", the plain words in their plain sense carry the meaning, and no other meaning is acceptable. Any other interpretation of the "plain exposition" genre is necessarily a distortion.

[Kim Anderson]

I am a debate coach for a homeschool cooperative. This format sounds like it would be an interesting permutation of what my students do orally every week. I feel an assignment coming on!

[Kevin]

Did any debates happen? How would I know if they had?

I'm up for anything in ecclesiology, but will settle for almost any topic just to try the concept.

[Doug]

Well the Favored son’s of the home town’s, debate immigration, young and old men trying to eke out a living well being 1,000’s of miles from wives and children. The fallacy of under paid, over worked is just that. The fine fellows I work with know all the English they can. Read most often as well as you and I. Look this is the only country in the world were people fight to get in not to get out. Until life south of Texas is as good or better then North you can put up all the fence you want. These men can dig a hole big enough to drive through faster then a track hoe. Unlike the public school, brain washed liberal, can’t pass the 8th grade math as a senior student that think we owe them a paycheck just case that got out of bed by noon. I don’t know the answer mostly because I don’t know the question. Should they learn English YES most want to. If they rob some one should they be sent away YES most don’t. Should we educate there Children WELL if we are ever going to have a resolution with Mexico somebody better start enlightening somebody. A story then I will close. A man asked to be dropped off at a phone. 2 Minuets later with a dejected face the man re-emerge. “Everything ok” NO “anything I can do” NO “do you need to go home” he has been hear 2 1/2 years YES “are you going too” NO they need the money. That night as I read GODS wards I tried to put my self in his spot and I thanked my GOD I couldn’t. I have never met a harder worker, honest as the day is long, Skill that only hard work and time bring about. He plants 100 plants to my 1, digs 100 feet to my 2, and reads the paper from the mail box to the shop. SO well those dog’s in DC that can’t hut, bark around the problem most of us in Texas are helping them become better citizens, family members and Christians.