Did you hear about Pastor Marty Minto, also a radio talk show host, who was asked by a caller if he thought the Pope was going to heaven, and answered that if he was born again, and believed Christ died for his sins, etc., that he would? He was fired from his job at the Evangelical Christian radio station WORD-FM in Pittsburgh, because such an answer might alienate some listeners. I kid you not.
La Shawn Barber has a great piece on this one. Pat Buchanan interviewed Pastor Minto when he guest hosted MSNBC's Scarborough Country, and you can read the transcript here.
Of course, we are told that the Gospel will be an offense to those that are perishing, but I think in this case there is a misunderstanding of terminology. Being, "born again," has come to take on a cultural meaning that is not Biblical. It is equated with certain denominations or factions of the church, and therefore seems to exclude others. It is used politically as a pejorative and coupled with words such as radical right, and fundamentalist extremist.
Few mainline Protestants or Roman Catholics who are genuine believers would describe themselves as "born again Christians." But if they are genuine believers they ought to. If the Biblical concept of being born again is properly understood, then any person of any denomination or no denomination at all, that believes they are saved from the just penalty of their sins only through the redeeming work of Jesus Christ, offered to them by grace and received through faith, ought to be comfortable referring to themselves as born again.
I think if Pastor Minto hadn't used the words, "born again," but had instead merely said that if the Pope had faith in the redeeming work of Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation, he would have been fine. But the words born again made his answer explosive.
Let's look at where these words are used in Scripture.
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not marvel that I said to you, "You must be born again.' 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b]16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. have eternal life.
18"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
John 3:1-21
If I had to sum up the subject of these verses in one word, I would choose the word faith. If I had to quickly sum up what being born again has to do with faith, I would say, "You have to be born again in order to have faith." The whole idea here is that one cannot even see the Kingdom of God unless one first has been born again. One could also put it this way, "If one has faith, then that one must have been born again."
Being born again is not unlike being born the first time, in that the one being born does not choose to be born, nor does he choose the time and circumstances. In both our physical births and our spiritual rebirths, God decides all that. Being born again is not about denominations or altar calls or sinners' prayers, though it made lead some to participate in those kinds of things. What being born again is about is the rebirth of the spirit of a man, woman or child so that he or she can see the Kingdom of God, understand the Gospel message, desire God, be moved to repentance and come to faith. It is the opening of the eyes of the spiritually blind, and the unstopping of their ears.
I think if Pastor Minto was asked if he believed Dory Zinkand was going to heaven, he would have given the same answer. It isn't his place to say who has genuine faith and who does not. God is the judge of that. But as a pastor, he certainly can give a Biblical answer to what genuine faith and genuine conversion is like. I wouldn't consider it disrespectful at all if he gave that answer in regards to me, and from what I know of the late Pope, I don't think he would, either.
Below are some questions from the Westminster Shorter Catechism that give Biblical answers to questions about redemption, faith and repentance. I copied these from the Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics site, and if you go there, you can read it with notes that refer to Scripture proofs. Note especially Question 31, which deals with the born again concept by the name effectual calling.
Q. 29. How are we made partakers of the redemption purchased by Christ?
A. We are made partakers of the redemption purchased by Christ, by the effectual application of it to us by his Holy Spirit.
Q. 30. How doth the Spirit apply to us the redemption purchased by Christ?
A. The Spirit applieth to us the redemption purchased by Christ, by working faith in us, and thereby uniting us to Christ in our effectual calling.
Q. 31. What is effectual calling?
A. Effectual calling is the work of God’s Spirit, whereby, convincing
us of our sin and misery, enlightening our minds in the knowledge of
Christ, and renewing our wills, he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, freely offered to us in the gospel.
Q. 32. What benefits do they that are effectually called partake of in this life?
A. They that are effectually called do in this life partake of
justification, adoption, and sanctification, and the several benefits
which in this life do either accompany or flow from them.
Q. 33. What is justification?
A. Justification is an act of God’s free grace, wherein he pardoneth all our sins, and accepteth us as righteous in His sight, only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and received by faith alone.
Q. 34. What is adoption?
A. Adoption is an act of God’s free grace,a whereby we are received
into the number, and have a right to all the privileges, of the sons of
God.
Q. 35. What is sanctification?
A. Sanctification is the work of God’s free grace, whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness.
Q. 36. What are the benefits which in this life do accompany or flow from justification, adoption, and sanctification?
A. The benefits which in this life do accompany or flow from
justification, adoption, and sanctification, are, assurance of God’s
love, peace of conscience, joy in the Holy Ghost, increase of grace, and perseverance therein to the end.
You're aware, I hope, that the term "born again" is inaccurate. The actual phrase is "born from above". "Born again" can obviously be inferred but it detracts from the real force of the meaning.
You're also aware, I hope, that Ms. Barber is a full-on hard-core Calvinist, even to the point of interpreting the word "world" in John 3:16 as applying only to the elect. Calvinists cannot even offer a correct Gospel message if they believe that God loves only a few of the inhabitants of that "world." "I have good news for you. There is a remote possibility that God may love you and chosen you to part of His family."
Posted by: stan | April 18, 2005 at 05:55 PM
I'm glad you're finding interesting blogs to comment on, Stan, and Dory's is one of the best.
Posted by: LB | April 19, 2005 at 05:33 AM
If you are not aware, Marty Minto is scheduled to be on The Dividing Line today. It will be archived as well.
Posted by: Jeff Downs | April 19, 2005 at 09:24 AM
Whoa, Stan, I wouldn't strain gnats over the term "born again" or "born from above." Being "born from above" comes, by definition, second to being "born from below"...ergo "again." Numerous translations use "again" as an accurate carrying of the idiom into English. In fact, the original ridicule directed at the Greek term "born from above" is more simply and accurately carried over in the more commonly known "born again."
As far as LaShawn's Calvinistic interpretation of John 3:16, I have to agree that I had the same thoughts. Under no circumstances can the greek term for "world" in that verse be applied to the elect. God loves all, and some are saved (adopted) -- any well-intended alteration of this difficult concept begins in and leads to error.
To the real point: there is no Christian reason for Minto to be fired. I certainly believe that the listening audience of Christian radio is more accomodating to both sound doctrine and doctrinal controversy than the producers of programming. If Christian radio becomes indistinguishable from Lite 104.5 FM or Oldies 92 in its ability to do little more than serve up audio anesthesia, I'd rather they drop the "Christian" conceit altogether.
Posted by: Dan | April 19, 2005 at 10:14 AM
It's a bit sad to me that on this issue--a point on which all Christians ought to be able to stand as one and proclaim together that salvation is through Christ alone--that the discussion so quickly degenerates into a discussion of issues that divide us.
I'd be happy to discuss the differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. It would be a great debate topic, (It probably would need to be broken down to more narrow points of doctrine.), and I'd be pleased to host it as a Wittenberg Gate Debate should two people choose to debate it. However, if that happens, I doubt either side would gain much from using John 3:16 as a proof text of their position.
But, of course, this isn't the point of this issue at all. This is a situation in which a man was fired because he responded to a direct question about a man's salvation by humbly avoiding making himself the judge of another man's soul and instead referring to what the Bible says are the conditions for someone to be saved.
I have no idea if Pastor Minto is an Arminian or a Calvinist or somewhere on that broad spectrum that lies between the two. I don't know because his remarks, as reported, don't reveal it. And that's the point.
Posted by: Dory | April 19, 2005 at 01:33 PM
I think if Pastor Minto hadn't used the words, "born again," but had instead merely said that if the Pope had faith in the redeeming work of Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation, he would have been fine.
He probably also would've been fine if he hadn't been attacking Catholic beliefs. The news stories are pretty vague, but I really wouldn't be surprised if he were an anti-Catholic, Jack Chick style protestant.
As I said, the news stories are pretty unclear (why muddy a sensational story with context?), but jumping out to defend this man is, at least, premature.
Posted by: jpe | April 20, 2005 at 12:13 AM
I'm from Pittsburgh (with an "h" -- something that keeps getting dropped from the blogs I'm reading about this) and I've listened to WORD for a few years for specific programs. Sometimes Marty's voice got to me, and I wouldn't listen to him. Sometimes he was spouting and it wasn't relevant to me at the time. Usually, though, he was pretty careful to draw his comments from an honest and open reading of scripure -- and if that means, jpe, builder of straw men, that he's a Chick style protestant, then so be it. Let's keep in mind, regardless of what your stripe: As Dory said, Marty did not take upon himself the role of judge over the pope's soul and Marty quoted scripture in his statement about the pope's eternal state. That's it. Period. Same thing when he was on with Buchanan. In fact, there it was pretty clear at the end of the discussion that Buchanan's beef was with Scripture and not Minto. And it would be nice if those of you who don't like what he said would be honest and admit that's where your beef lies also. As one blogger notes, this is where the danger of soli scriptura gets ya. Now that's a mouthful.
Posted by: mrsdkm | April 20, 2005 at 10:14 AM
and if that means, jpe, builder of straw men
I think you misinterpreted me. My comment was pretty modest: the news reports have been slim on details, so maybe conclusions should be withheld until more information is forthcoming.
I think the context of the show is important: if he were a Jack Chick acolyte, and often railed against papistry (which some protestants do, right?), then his seemingly benign comment about the fate of the Pope's soul take on a new dimension, and evince an incredible lack of judgment.
If he did think that Catholics are idolaters and pagans and not Christian by dint of being Catholic, he may very well be right - but that's not the point. When Reagan died, for example, many people were lining up to criticize him in the most offensive ways. The thing that got to me and many others wasn't so much the substance of the criticism, but the timing and offensive manner in which it was couched. Let others grieve before you start consigning the dead to hell.
Certainly the papistry-criticisms could have waited a few weeks. Like I said, I don't know if Minto's radio persona was anti-Catholic. It it were, though, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to can him for lack of judgment. There's a time and a place for robust critism; but have some decency and wait until the man is buried.
Posted by: jpe | April 20, 2005 at 11:10 AM
Here's an absurdly thorough round-up of reaction and info.
Posted by: jpe | April 20, 2005 at 11:55 AM
What's "anti-Catholic"? Being Protestant?
Posted by: Steve | April 22, 2005 at 03:01 PM
jpe,
I'm sorry you found my thoroughness absurd, but I thank you for the plug. ;)
Posted by: Funky Dung | April 24, 2005 at 03:32 PM
You know, in the end, I don't think God will care about whether or not a person is "Born Again," however you define it. If a person has had a deep abiding faith from childhood without a born again experience, does that consign them to hell? Or maybe, quite possible, is the important issue that a person have a personal relationship with God, and a heart that seeks to follow his will? Yes, Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and the only way to Heaven is through Him, but how do we know how Christ reaches each and every person? I believe my responsibility is to have a personal relationship with Christ, and that my life should testify to that, otherwise faith is meaningless. And if Minto alienated listeners by consigning to hell Protestants and Catholics alike who don't necessarily buy into the evangelical definition of "born again" then maybe, just maybe he deserved to be fired. But then, I didn't work there, and I guess I'll never know the whole story.
Posted by: Phaedra | June 10, 2005 at 02:31 PM
I know this is an old post but I had to comment. First and foremost, the pope of any age is as much ANTI-CHRIST as a person can be (which can easily be supported by scripture). But the fact is stated clearly in scripture that without being born again, a person cannot go to heaven. Jesus said Repent or Perish. The Bible's clear, without salvation it's hell!
Posted by: preacherboy21 | March 20, 2006 at 11:39 PM